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	<title>Comments for Center for the Advancement of the Steady State Economy</title>
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		<title>Comment on The Fallacy of the Tragedy of the Commons by Skip VB</title>
		<link>http://steadystate.org/the-fallacy-of-the-tragedy-of-the-commons/comment-page-1/#comment-9112</link>
		<dc:creator>Skip VB</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Feb 2012 13:22:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://steadystate.org/?p=3666#comment-9112</guid>
		<description>There are many other ownership and management models that Hardin fails to consider in his essay. Many critiques I have read argue that Hardin was too simplistic in his options for commons management (such as community based solutions of Ostrom) or complain about the examples and thought exercises he uses in his essays, but they really do little to deny his central argument that openly accessible unmanaged resources are eventually overexploited. Critiques that point out Hardin&#039;s failure to consider various forms of sharing and rights arrangement clarify details and illustrate ways in which &quot;mutual coercion&quot; has been worked out in various societies. In the article here, de Villiers says that Hardin suggested that &quot;The solution to the dilemma, it seemed obvious, was privatization, the enclosure of the commons.&quot; Hardin did not make that suggestion. In fact, in a retrospective look at his work, Hardin says, &quot;Individualism is cherished because it produces freedom, but the gift is conditional: The more the population exceeds the carrying capacity of the environment, the more freedoms must be given up.&quot; Thus, some form of &quot;mutual coercion, mutually agreed upon,&quot; must be entered into to preserve and manage the common resource.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There are many other ownership and management models that Hardin fails to consider in his essay. Many critiques I have read argue that Hardin was too simplistic in his options for commons management (such as community based solutions of Ostrom) or complain about the examples and thought exercises he uses in his essays, but they really do little to deny his central argument that openly accessible unmanaged resources are eventually overexploited. Critiques that point out Hardin&#8217;s failure to consider various forms of sharing and rights arrangement clarify details and illustrate ways in which &#8220;mutual coercion&#8221; has been worked out in various societies. In the article here, de Villiers says that Hardin suggested that &#8220;The solution to the dilemma, it seemed obvious, was privatization, the enclosure of the commons.&#8221; Hardin did not make that suggestion. In fact, in a retrospective look at his work, Hardin says, &#8220;Individualism is cherished because it produces freedom, but the gift is conditional: The more the population exceeds the carrying capacity of the environment, the more freedoms must be given up.&#8221; Thus, some form of &#8220;mutual coercion, mutually agreed upon,&#8221; must be entered into to preserve and manage the common resource.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Fallacy of the Tragedy of the Commons by Tim Gieseke</title>
		<link>http://steadystate.org/the-fallacy-of-the-tragedy-of-the-commons/comment-page-1/#comment-9093</link>
		<dc:creator>Tim Gieseke</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jan 2012 16:00:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://steadystate.org/?p=3666#comment-9093</guid>
		<description>My experience is that Tragedy of the Commons, or better said &quot;tragedy of the economy&quot; is very real.  If an economic system &quot;contains&quot; externalities, people are innately aware of this advantage (consciously aware is another matter).  I also see Adam Smith right on the mark as it pertains to people&#039;s self-interest and sometime selfish interests.  Rational can be debated, but decision made to address one&#039;s self-interest is common, unless you are a martyr.  What Hardin saw and what Smith didn&#039;t quite see was that the value of and improving natural capital is not included in the economic system.  Makes sense, there has been abundance of natural economic goods and services, so there was no apparent self interest to conserve.  We now are to the point that we recognize the self-interest of keeping this capital functioning, because if we don&#039;t we will have to fight for it and we can see that is not in our self-interests.  We also know that if we manage natural capital, a finite resource, that it can produce a finite amount of goods, infinitely.  
I farm in the USA Midwest and as a manager of primary economic production, I seek out market signals and manage the land accordingly.  If a market signal existed for natural capital management or the externalized goods that it produces, then economic game on.  We live in two major economic systems - the monetary one that we made up and the ecological one that the earth made up.  The trick is to mesh the two big gears of these economic systems.  I am starting with an ecocommerce model that I made up - and it works.   So let economic evolution begin.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My experience is that Tragedy of the Commons, or better said &#8220;tragedy of the economy&#8221; is very real.  If an economic system &#8220;contains&#8221; externalities, people are innately aware of this advantage (consciously aware is another matter).  I also see Adam Smith right on the mark as it pertains to people&#8217;s self-interest and sometime selfish interests.  Rational can be debated, but decision made to address one&#8217;s self-interest is common, unless you are a martyr.  What Hardin saw and what Smith didn&#8217;t quite see was that the value of and improving natural capital is not included in the economic system.  Makes sense, there has been abundance of natural economic goods and services, so there was no apparent self interest to conserve.  We now are to the point that we recognize the self-interest of keeping this capital functioning, because if we don&#8217;t we will have to fight for it and we can see that is not in our self-interests.  We also know that if we manage natural capital, a finite resource, that it can produce a finite amount of goods, infinitely.<br />
I farm in the USA Midwest and as a manager of primary economic production, I seek out market signals and manage the land accordingly.  If a market signal existed for natural capital management or the externalized goods that it produces, then economic game on.  We live in two major economic systems &#8211; the monetary one that we made up and the ecological one that the earth made up.  The trick is to mesh the two big gears of these economic systems.  I am starting with an ecocommerce model that I made up &#8211; and it works.   So let economic evolution begin.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Fallacy of the Tragedy of the Commons by ZielonyGrzyb</title>
		<link>http://steadystate.org/the-fallacy-of-the-tragedy-of-the-commons/comment-page-1/#comment-9067</link>
		<dc:creator>ZielonyGrzyb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2012 19:30:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://steadystate.org/?p=3666#comment-9067</guid>
		<description>@ Dave Gardner:

You are right to point that out. There is some truth in the tragedy of commons argument - Ostrom herself has emphasized that there is limited scope for communal approaches to the commons governance problem. However, it is important to know that it is possible to manage them so.

@ Steve Chase:

Hardin was by no means a &quot;tool&quot; of Capitalism. However, his analysis of the commons dilemma was overly pessimistic and didn&#039;t allow for &quot;communal&quot; solutions - indeed, while reading his &quot;Tragedy of Commons&quot; I had the impression that he was a deep misanthrope, not really believing in humanity&#039;s &quot;good sides&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@ Dave Gardner:</p>
<p>You are right to point that out. There is some truth in the tragedy of commons argument &#8211; Ostrom herself has emphasized that there is limited scope for communal approaches to the commons governance problem. However, it is important to know that it is possible to manage them so.</p>
<p>@ Steve Chase:</p>
<p>Hardin was by no means a &#8220;tool&#8221; of Capitalism. However, his analysis of the commons dilemma was overly pessimistic and didn&#8217;t allow for &#8220;communal&#8221; solutions &#8211; indeed, while reading his &#8220;Tragedy of Commons&#8221; I had the impression that he was a deep misanthrope, not really believing in humanity&#8217;s &#8220;good sides&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Fallacy of the Tragedy of the Commons by Steve Chase</title>
		<link>http://steadystate.org/the-fallacy-of-the-tragedy-of-the-commons/comment-page-1/#comment-9064</link>
		<dc:creator>Steve Chase</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2012 16:14:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://steadystate.org/?p=3666#comment-9064</guid>
		<description>When I read the &quot;Tragedy of the Commons&quot; in 1979, it was in an Environmental law class and it was treated as a clarion call to action to counteract unfettered free market capitalism, When did it and its author become tools of Capitalism?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I read the &#8220;Tragedy of the Commons&#8221; in 1979, it was in an Environmental law class and it was treated as a clarion call to action to counteract unfettered free market capitalism, When did it and its author become tools of Capitalism?</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Fallacy of the Tragedy of the Commons by Dave Gardner</title>
		<link>http://steadystate.org/the-fallacy-of-the-tragedy-of-the-commons/comment-page-1/#comment-9062</link>
		<dc:creator>Dave Gardner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2012 15:28:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://steadystate.org/?p=3666#comment-9062</guid>
		<description>I agree it is very important to recognize the goodness in humankind. Ostrom&#039;s work is great. I think a huge part of our current predicament is we&#039;ve listened to the economists for too long, and as a result we expect too little of ourselves.

However, we would be wise to recognize there is some truth to the tragedy of the commons. Just as we have capacity to be rational and collaborative, we also have the capacity to be selfish and short-sighted.

We should expect more of ourselves, but guard against our destructive weaknesses.

Dave Gardner
Director of the documentary
GrowthBusters: Hooked on Growth</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree it is very important to recognize the goodness in humankind. Ostrom&#8217;s work is great. I think a huge part of our current predicament is we&#8217;ve listened to the economists for too long, and as a result we expect too little of ourselves.</p>
<p>However, we would be wise to recognize there is some truth to the tragedy of the commons. Just as we have capacity to be rational and collaborative, we also have the capacity to be selfish and short-sighted.</p>
<p>We should expect more of ourselves, but guard against our destructive weaknesses.</p>
<p>Dave Gardner<br />
Director of the documentary<br />
GrowthBusters: Hooked on Growth</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Fallacy of the Tragedy of the Commons by ZielonyGrzyb</title>
		<link>http://steadystate.org/the-fallacy-of-the-tragedy-of-the-commons/comment-page-1/#comment-9050</link>
		<dc:creator>ZielonyGrzyb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2012 12:17:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://steadystate.org/?p=3666#comment-9050</guid>
		<description>It may be that this was the only merit of the so-called Nobel Prize in Economic Sciences when it was given in 2009 to Elinor Ostrom. A scientist who&#039;s studied exactly these community based solutions to the alleged tragedy of the commons and shown us that there is an option beyond their privatization or nationalization.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It may be that this was the only merit of the so-called Nobel Prize in Economic Sciences when it was given in 2009 to Elinor Ostrom. A scientist who&#8217;s studied exactly these community based solutions to the alleged tragedy of the commons and shown us that there is an option beyond their privatization or nationalization.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Why Do We Assume More Equals Better? by Robert Bernal</title>
		<link>http://steadystate.org/why-do-we-assume-more-equals-better/comment-page-1/#comment-9039</link>
		<dc:creator>Robert Bernal</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jan 2012 05:21:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://steadystate.org/?p=3626#comment-9039</guid>
		<description>I am not successful in the usual way, and thus have become accustomed to not getting everything I want... Yet I still contribute to pollution almost as much, perhaps even more than the affluent... simply because I have older, WAY less efficient stuff AND live in a house that is terrible at insulation. It doesn&#039;t even have good south facing windows to let heat in during winter, but, even if it did, the house next door blocks it!
Anyways, no &quot;real&quot; job means using a desktop (instead of a much more efficient laptop), driving with an older (yet very heavy duty and reliable) Ford F350. In short, I want to say that if I had the financial ability, I would actually be contributing less, in the long run by being far more efficient... but then again, I might be tempted!

Imagine more people living a better life while using LESS energy. Without efficiency, there is no hope to live in a steady state economy. Proofs of point are the electric car and the led (which are about 4 x and 12 times more efficient than what they will replace, respectively). 
However, clean energy needs lots of powerlines and space... but still, that&#039;s BETTER than accelerating CO2 content in our air and the massive amount of local enviro damage by extracting and using fossil fuels.
Of course, there is the option (I mean the faint hope) of closed cycle molten salt thorium reactors... This would cut down on desert solar, powerlines and XSCO2.
Whatever the best choice though, it has to delete fossil fuels before we let them delete us in subsequent depletion years (and it would be nice to use that store for non burning purposes during the interim period of learning how not to need them all together)!

And I am afraid that we somehow have to delete money, as marketing 101 clearly points to an over excess of everything which is designed to fail in a set amount of time. This, I assume many already know.
Food is raised and grown for money, not for consideration of efficiency (well maybe due to the costs of inefficiency). Same with the very structure of our cities and towns.
Until humanity can collectively focus on (figuring out how to get to) the most efficient social structure, only then does &quot;lifestyle&quot; have a meaningful overall relevance towards sustainability.

Imagine a society which does not have personal money (I know this is still &quot;impossible&quot; and have not considered it on an academic level)!
By that I mean, everybody has equal ownership of &quot;the state&quot; and thus ALL monies are collectively, the state&#039;s. With that, purchasing power goes to the betterment of the state, which inturn provide individuals with all that they need, albeit on an ordered and structured way.
The people willing to test this new social structure would essentially (be hoping to) be rich slaves for themselves!
Imagine all the things money can&#039;t buy... Large renewable energy installations, free higher education, and eventually, expansion out into the solar system itself... It also would permit the mass manufacture of &quot;everything&quot; needed (such as cell phones, smart TV&#039;s and cars) to be as efficient and long lasting as possible. Machines would eventually make &quot;everything&quot;, yet this would be the way (the only way I can see) to sidestep unemployment cause by such machines already being developed!

A closer to home (yet still far out) scenario would be that the &quot;state&quot; exports a single machine made commodity, such as 30% efficient GaAs fresnel arrays for literally pennies on the dollar. Since only the state could profit, and since only the people would control the state (keep them internet lines in good shape!), retail would become a thing of the past. By virtue of the co-op concept, it seems this concept would eventually prevail over personal money (at least for the majority in our economic systems).
From there, more machines are made that displace more jobs, allowing time to work on the development of yet more machines... because eventually, there will be no monies coming into the state when all other countries convert over too.

All we need from Earth are the seeds, underground mining, water and air (and sunlight). No more &quot;marketing&quot; the wholesale slaughter of the environment, just a little detriment due to the erection of solar arrays (which do not need bulldozed land), and or molten salt reactors (the citizens would still &quot;need&quot; sunlight!). Food would be hydroponically grown, same with meat? using (high power and wavelength specific) leds as artificial sunlight within large buildings. Eventually, less energy would be required as the &quot;cheapest, easiest way&quot; to promote &quot;turn around&quot; would no longer make any sense! The building of giant &quot;3d cities&quot; (out of graphine?) would allow &quot;local economy&quot; efficiencies too (not to mention smog free electric car transportation that negotiates on VERTICAL pathways and many hundreds of levels as well as wonderful views).

I would call this future social structure a &quot;machine economy based on available resources&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I am not successful in the usual way, and thus have become accustomed to not getting everything I want&#8230; Yet I still contribute to pollution almost as much, perhaps even more than the affluent&#8230; simply because I have older, WAY less efficient stuff AND live in a house that is terrible at insulation. It doesn&#8217;t even have good south facing windows to let heat in during winter, but, even if it did, the house next door blocks it!<br />
Anyways, no &#8220;real&#8221; job means using a desktop (instead of a much more efficient laptop), driving with an older (yet very heavy duty and reliable) Ford F350. In short, I want to say that if I had the financial ability, I would actually be contributing less, in the long run by being far more efficient&#8230; but then again, I might be tempted!</p>
<p>Imagine more people living a better life while using LESS energy. Without efficiency, there is no hope to live in a steady state economy. Proofs of point are the electric car and the led (which are about 4 x and 12 times more efficient than what they will replace, respectively).<br />
However, clean energy needs lots of powerlines and space&#8230; but still, that&#8217;s BETTER than accelerating CO2 content in our air and the massive amount of local enviro damage by extracting and using fossil fuels.<br />
Of course, there is the option (I mean the faint hope) of closed cycle molten salt thorium reactors&#8230; This would cut down on desert solar, powerlines and XSCO2.<br />
Whatever the best choice though, it has to delete fossil fuels before we let them delete us in subsequent depletion years (and it would be nice to use that store for non burning purposes during the interim period of learning how not to need them all together)!</p>
<p>And I am afraid that we somehow have to delete money, as marketing 101 clearly points to an over excess of everything which is designed to fail in a set amount of time. This, I assume many already know.<br />
Food is raised and grown for money, not for consideration of efficiency (well maybe due to the costs of inefficiency). Same with the very structure of our cities and towns.<br />
Until humanity can collectively focus on (figuring out how to get to) the most efficient social structure, only then does &#8220;lifestyle&#8221; have a meaningful overall relevance towards sustainability.</p>
<p>Imagine a society which does not have personal money (I know this is still &#8220;impossible&#8221; and have not considered it on an academic level)!<br />
By that I mean, everybody has equal ownership of &#8220;the state&#8221; and thus ALL monies are collectively, the state&#8217;s. With that, purchasing power goes to the betterment of the state, which inturn provide individuals with all that they need, albeit on an ordered and structured way.<br />
The people willing to test this new social structure would essentially (be hoping to) be rich slaves for themselves!<br />
Imagine all the things money can&#8217;t buy&#8230; Large renewable energy installations, free higher education, and eventually, expansion out into the solar system itself&#8230; It also would permit the mass manufacture of &#8220;everything&#8221; needed (such as cell phones, smart TV&#8217;s and cars) to be as efficient and long lasting as possible. Machines would eventually make &#8220;everything&#8221;, yet this would be the way (the only way I can see) to sidestep unemployment cause by such machines already being developed!</p>
<p>A closer to home (yet still far out) scenario would be that the &#8220;state&#8221; exports a single machine made commodity, such as 30% efficient GaAs fresnel arrays for literally pennies on the dollar. Since only the state could profit, and since only the people would control the state (keep them internet lines in good shape!), retail would become a thing of the past. By virtue of the co-op concept, it seems this concept would eventually prevail over personal money (at least for the majority in our economic systems).<br />
From there, more machines are made that displace more jobs, allowing time to work on the development of yet more machines&#8230; because eventually, there will be no monies coming into the state when all other countries convert over too.</p>
<p>All we need from Earth are the seeds, underground mining, water and air (and sunlight). No more &#8220;marketing&#8221; the wholesale slaughter of the environment, just a little detriment due to the erection of solar arrays (which do not need bulldozed land), and or molten salt reactors (the citizens would still &#8220;need&#8221; sunlight!). Food would be hydroponically grown, same with meat? using (high power and wavelength specific) leds as artificial sunlight within large buildings. Eventually, less energy would be required as the &#8220;cheapest, easiest way&#8221; to promote &#8220;turn around&#8221; would no longer make any sense! The building of giant &#8220;3d cities&#8221; (out of graphine?) would allow &#8220;local economy&#8221; efficiencies too (not to mention smog free electric car transportation that negotiates on VERTICAL pathways and many hundreds of levels as well as wonderful views).</p>
<p>I would call this future social structure a &#8220;machine economy based on available resources&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Why Do We Assume More Equals Better? by Mark R.</title>
		<link>http://steadystate.org/why-do-we-assume-more-equals-better/comment-page-1/#comment-9021</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark R.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jan 2012 15:34:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://steadystate.org/?p=3626#comment-9021</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s great that someone that took Marketing has awakened so thoroughly to the Big Assumption and associated premises, no less.  I liked Cocoa Krispies, Pebbles and the like as a kid myself.  As recall, one used a flakier form that became mushier faster.  

      As far as the wealthy developing an awareness.  An in-law of mine worked at NOLS, an outdoor recreation organization, and grew up with not insignificant financial privileges.  I was happy to learn that she is a fan of organic foods.
      I recall that at least one of the Rockefeller descendants became a conservation biologist, as did one of Ted Turner&#039;s sons, and Paul Newman&#039;s daughter who heads an organic food branch of Newman&#039;s Own Co.

       It seems to me an important way to alert people who are not so directly oriented is through clear accounts of pollution and degradation versus environmentally sustainable production.  Even organic agriculture needs to be integrated with a more comprehensive vision of agroecology.  In southern Brazil, at least one area requires a sizeable portion of untouched land by local small farmers.

       In my graduate studies, especially thanks to Clive Ponting&#039;s book Green History of the World, I extended my awareness of the significance of Love Canal, NY and the toxic waste crisis there that exploded in 1978, to the racial significance of a North Carolina incident in the 1980s that lead to the founding of the EPA&#039;s office of Environmental Justice.  Then there are European incidents like the 1970s Seveso and 1980s Basel, besides Chernobyl.  This doesn&#039;t even include reference to Cleveland&#039;s Erie River fires of the 1960s.  The Latin American region has a reference in a 1980s disaster at Cubatao, Sao Paulo, Brazil.  All this in addition to the Superfund tracking website developed by Environmental Defense Fund, now maintained by another NGO, called &quot;scorecard&quot; or something as memory serves.

        Ultimately, these accounts give environmentalists like McKibben, Dietz, and the rest of us ways to paint pictures and tell stories that can help anchor other people who haven&#039;t quite made it to safe harbor.  As for Cap&#039;n Crunch (Crunchberry!) and the like, I&#039;ve seen organic cereal venturing into chocolate flavoring last I recall.  The health food companies represent that other aspect, the social one, that is actually inseparable from the ecological one.  By supporting more companies, we get closer to one of the principles behind sustainability, broader experience of participation, not of consumer fantasy.  At times I put my own organic chocolate powder on granola with milk to relive the carefree days of childhood.  Cocoa Pebbles from the Flintstones in a homemade cereal concoction (hcc).  That&#039;s how we can create a wake up call benefiting from the appeal of popular cartoon images to hcc.  That&#039;s the solidarity ecological economy underlying the steady state concept, it seems to me.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s great that someone that took Marketing has awakened so thoroughly to the Big Assumption and associated premises, no less.  I liked Cocoa Krispies, Pebbles and the like as a kid myself.  As recall, one used a flakier form that became mushier faster.  </p>
<p>      As far as the wealthy developing an awareness.  An in-law of mine worked at NOLS, an outdoor recreation organization, and grew up with not insignificant financial privileges.  I was happy to learn that she is a fan of organic foods.<br />
      I recall that at least one of the Rockefeller descendants became a conservation biologist, as did one of Ted Turner&#8217;s sons, and Paul Newman&#8217;s daughter who heads an organic food branch of Newman&#8217;s Own Co.</p>
<p>       It seems to me an important way to alert people who are not so directly oriented is through clear accounts of pollution and degradation versus environmentally sustainable production.  Even organic agriculture needs to be integrated with a more comprehensive vision of agroecology.  In southern Brazil, at least one area requires a sizeable portion of untouched land by local small farmers.</p>
<p>       In my graduate studies, especially thanks to Clive Ponting&#8217;s book Green History of the World, I extended my awareness of the significance of Love Canal, NY and the toxic waste crisis there that exploded in 1978, to the racial significance of a North Carolina incident in the 1980s that lead to the founding of the EPA&#8217;s office of Environmental Justice.  Then there are European incidents like the 1970s Seveso and 1980s Basel, besides Chernobyl.  This doesn&#8217;t even include reference to Cleveland&#8217;s Erie River fires of the 1960s.  The Latin American region has a reference in a 1980s disaster at Cubatao, Sao Paulo, Brazil.  All this in addition to the Superfund tracking website developed by Environmental Defense Fund, now maintained by another NGO, called &#8220;scorecard&#8221; or something as memory serves.</p>
<p>        Ultimately, these accounts give environmentalists like McKibben, Dietz, and the rest of us ways to paint pictures and tell stories that can help anchor other people who haven&#8217;t quite made it to safe harbor.  As for Cap&#8217;n Crunch (Crunchberry!) and the like, I&#8217;ve seen organic cereal venturing into chocolate flavoring last I recall.  The health food companies represent that other aspect, the social one, that is actually inseparable from the ecological one.  By supporting more companies, we get closer to one of the principles behind sustainability, broader experience of participation, not of consumer fantasy.  At times I put my own organic chocolate powder on granola with milk to relive the carefree days of childhood.  Cocoa Pebbles from the Flintstones in a homemade cereal concoction (hcc).  That&#8217;s how we can create a wake up call benefiting from the appeal of popular cartoon images to hcc.  That&#8217;s the solidarity ecological economy underlying the steady state concept, it seems to me.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Technological Progress for Dummies, Part II by Jim Dette</title>
		<link>http://steadystate.org/technological-progress-for-dummies-part-ii/comment-page-1/#comment-8952</link>
		<dc:creator>Jim Dette</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 23 Jan 2012 22:58:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://steadystate.org/?p=3619#comment-8952</guid>
		<description>Here it is in 900 words
EXPONENTIAL TROIKA
By
James T. Dette


	In a prescient 1971 essay, &quot;National Economy: How High Is Up?&quot; Professor Herman Daly deplored the received wisdom that robust, unlimited economic growth was not only possible but desirable and suggested in its stead a stationary-state economy where zero growth of population and the economy is not only desirable but necessary to avoid the depletion of our environmental resources.  He added that the only disagreements that could exist among reasonable people were (a) what levels of population and wealth to stop at, and (b) how fast to decelerate to zero growth.  It is now twenty-nine years since he made his observation, and the developed world, and more and more of the developing world, are pursuing growth of the now global economy as the panacea to our problems.  With the trickle-down, rising tide, and invisible hand all will be right with the world.
	Three factors in this race to oblivion stand out.
	The first is wealth.  Since 1971 the Dow Jones Industrial Average (shown on the top of Figure 1) has gone exponentially from what appeared then as an impenetrable 1000-point ceiling to finally bursting through the 10,000-point level as if it was just another ho-hum milestone to. . .where?  There is almost a unanimous feeling in the Market that it has no ceiling.  A new Internet stock bursts onto the scene with an initial public offering, or just a well-timed press release, and over night the total worth of the company is greater than that of the old reliables that actually make something and show a profit doing it.  With respect to economics, I know that the exponential curve we are riding is not, and I hate to use the much-abused term, sustainable.  
	The second factor in this race to nowhere is population.  (This exponential curve is show on the bottom of Figure 1, p3.)  Some say that the explosion is over.  (Ben J. Wattenberg, The Population Explosion Is Over.  New York Times, 11/23/97)  If the curve of the developed countries is a harbinger for the rest of the world, there may be a little room for optimism--that is, if we can get the developing countries developed.  This will not be an easy task, however, in light of the crash of the Asian Tigers in 1997.
	The last horse of the troika I&#039;m examining is the emission of carbon dioxide, the so-called &quot;global warming factor.&quot;  The environmentalists have been wringing their hands over this for at least ten years, and rightly so.  In spite of industrialists&#039; self-interested doubts and foot-dragging, the majority of the scientific community believes it&#039;s a very big problem.  But to concentrate on the reduction of greenhouse gases is to miss the point.  The world&#039;s industrial might is not producing carbon dioxide to create a warmer climate any more than the producers of herbicides, pesticides, and other widely used chemicals are deliberately trying to reduce the sperm count of male animals, including me.  The production of carbon dioxide is a by-product of the production of stuff, and the transporting of ourselves and our stuff, from place to place in a most environmentally unfriendly manner.
	If global warming were the only concern, we could greatly reduce the production of carbon dioxide by converting all the means of generating electricity to hydro, solar, or nuclear power.  (Nuclear and hydro power have a host of their own problems, but the production of carbon dioxide is not one of them.)  And we could further reduce the production of carbon dioxide by using natural gas to fuel at the least our mass transportation.
	Even if we were successful in making the above changes, we would still be producing and transporting stuff at a prodigious rate, and that is the big problem that we all face and are all a part of.  We have got to look at the curve of carbon dioxide production as the basic indicator of stuff production and at global warming only as a by-product.
	Consider the curves of population and carbon dioxide emissions: The 1.25 billion people of the developed world are now causing about 4 billion tons of carbon dioxide to be emitted per year.  That&#039;s about 3.2 tons per person.  If the people of the developing countries were causing the emissions of carbon dioxide at the same rate, the total world emissions would be 18.3 billion tons per year.  My graph paper isn&#039;t long enough to accommodate that data point   That&#039;s a lot of stuff.  It certainly could not happen overnight or in the next generation.  But there is no doubt in the minds of those riding the Dow curve that it&#039;s possible, and we are heading there with reckless abandon.
	To thwart this race to oblivion we must focus on limiting the production of stuff.  Global warming (and maybe population) might just take care of itself.  Of course, limiting production means looking hard at a stationary-state economy and the limit to wealth.  A commitment to limiting wealth in turn suggests a more equitable sharing of that wealth with its corollary, a simpler life style.  This will impose a heavy and delicate demand on our moral resources.  Professor Daly concludes his essay: &quot;One thing at least seems clear--a physically stationary economy must be a morally growing economy.  If this means that economists should begin to study ethics and theology, then so be it.  That is where economics began.&quot;  

James T. Dette
Copyright © 1999
22 Duer Place
Weehawken, NJ 07086
JTDette@aol.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here it is in 900 words<br />
EXPONENTIAL TROIKA<br />
By<br />
James T. Dette</p>
<p>	In a prescient 1971 essay, &#8220;National Economy: How High Is Up?&#8221; Professor Herman Daly deplored the received wisdom that robust, unlimited economic growth was not only possible but desirable and suggested in its stead a stationary-state economy where zero growth of population and the economy is not only desirable but necessary to avoid the depletion of our environmental resources.  He added that the only disagreements that could exist among reasonable people were (a) what levels of population and wealth to stop at, and (b) how fast to decelerate to zero growth.  It is now twenty-nine years since he made his observation, and the developed world, and more and more of the developing world, are pursuing growth of the now global economy as the panacea to our problems.  With the trickle-down, rising tide, and invisible hand all will be right with the world.<br />
	Three factors in this race to oblivion stand out.<br />
	The first is wealth.  Since 1971 the Dow Jones Industrial Average (shown on the top of Figure 1) has gone exponentially from what appeared then as an impenetrable 1000-point ceiling to finally bursting through the 10,000-point level as if it was just another ho-hum milestone to. . .where?  There is almost a unanimous feeling in the Market that it has no ceiling.  A new Internet stock bursts onto the scene with an initial public offering, or just a well-timed press release, and over night the total worth of the company is greater than that of the old reliables that actually make something and show a profit doing it.  With respect to economics, I know that the exponential curve we are riding is not, and I hate to use the much-abused term, sustainable.<br />
	The second factor in this race to nowhere is population.  (This exponential curve is show on the bottom of Figure 1, p3.)  Some say that the explosion is over.  (Ben J. Wattenberg, The Population Explosion Is Over.  New York Times, 11/23/97)  If the curve of the developed countries is a harbinger for the rest of the world, there may be a little room for optimism&#8211;that is, if we can get the developing countries developed.  This will not be an easy task, however, in light of the crash of the Asian Tigers in 1997.<br />
	The last horse of the troika I&#8217;m examining is the emission of carbon dioxide, the so-called &#8220;global warming factor.&#8221;  The environmentalists have been wringing their hands over this for at least ten years, and rightly so.  In spite of industrialists&#8217; self-interested doubts and foot-dragging, the majority of the scientific community believes it&#8217;s a very big problem.  But to concentrate on the reduction of greenhouse gases is to miss the point.  The world&#8217;s industrial might is not producing carbon dioxide to create a warmer climate any more than the producers of herbicides, pesticides, and other widely used chemicals are deliberately trying to reduce the sperm count of male animals, including me.  The production of carbon dioxide is a by-product of the production of stuff, and the transporting of ourselves and our stuff, from place to place in a most environmentally unfriendly manner.<br />
	If global warming were the only concern, we could greatly reduce the production of carbon dioxide by converting all the means of generating electricity to hydro, solar, or nuclear power.  (Nuclear and hydro power have a host of their own problems, but the production of carbon dioxide is not one of them.)  And we could further reduce the production of carbon dioxide by using natural gas to fuel at the least our mass transportation.<br />
	Even if we were successful in making the above changes, we would still be producing and transporting stuff at a prodigious rate, and that is the big problem that we all face and are all a part of.  We have got to look at the curve of carbon dioxide production as the basic indicator of stuff production and at global warming only as a by-product.<br />
	Consider the curves of population and carbon dioxide emissions: The 1.25 billion people of the developed world are now causing about 4 billion tons of carbon dioxide to be emitted per year.  That&#8217;s about 3.2 tons per person.  If the people of the developing countries were causing the emissions of carbon dioxide at the same rate, the total world emissions would be 18.3 billion tons per year.  My graph paper isn&#8217;t long enough to accommodate that data point   That&#8217;s a lot of stuff.  It certainly could not happen overnight or in the next generation.  But there is no doubt in the minds of those riding the Dow curve that it&#8217;s possible, and we are heading there with reckless abandon.<br />
	To thwart this race to oblivion we must focus on limiting the production of stuff.  Global warming (and maybe population) might just take care of itself.  Of course, limiting production means looking hard at a stationary-state economy and the limit to wealth.  A commitment to limiting wealth in turn suggests a more equitable sharing of that wealth with its corollary, a simpler life style.  This will impose a heavy and delicate demand on our moral resources.  Professor Daly concludes his essay: &#8220;One thing at least seems clear&#8211;a physically stationary economy must be a morally growing economy.  If this means that economists should begin to study ethics and theology, then so be it.  That is where economics began.&#8221;  </p>
<p>James T. Dette<br />
Copyright © 1999<br />
22 Duer Place<br />
Weehawken, NJ 07086<br />
<a href="mailto:JTDette@aol.com">JTDette@aol.com</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on Technological Progress for Dummies by Mark R.</title>
		<link>http://steadystate.org/technological-progress-for-dummies/comment-page-1/#comment-8869</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark R.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Jan 2012 01:11:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://steadystate.org/?p=3603#comment-8869</guid>
		<description>At geo.coop, Ethan Miller has published a masterpiece.  I have read a piece of his previously on the solidarity economy, and have known of his involvement with the movement.  
    His recent piece is titled &quot;OCCUPY! CONNECT! CREATE! - Imagining Life Beyond &quot;The Economy&quot; and does an excellent job of deconstructing the assumptions concerning the popular phrase &quot;the economy,&quot; and his discussion is related to the one here at CASSE, and the challenge Brian Czech poses in this post.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At geo.coop, Ethan Miller has published a masterpiece.  I have read a piece of his previously on the solidarity economy, and have known of his involvement with the movement.<br />
    His recent piece is titled &#8220;OCCUPY! CONNECT! CREATE! &#8211; Imagining Life Beyond &#8220;The Economy&#8221; and does an excellent job of deconstructing the assumptions concerning the popular phrase &#8220;the economy,&#8221; and his discussion is related to the one here at CASSE, and the challenge Brian Czech poses in this post.</p>
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